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PostPosted: April 10th, 2015, 11:15 pm 
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Reichsgraf
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About AA as a cult, read this.

On the question of governance generally, the problem with trying to describe an 'anarchic' form of organization is that there's no such thing as an all-inclusive definition.

Just to make things a bit more clear, let's exclude all forms of organization that are somehow mandated by law. Governments operate according to constitutions. Businesses operate according to another set of regulations. Even your local church is bound by law to govern itself in a certain way. So we can't use those as examples of any kind of free association. The moment you're told that you must organize in a certain way, free association kind of goes out the window.

AA is actually a reasonably good example of free association, but only on a local level. There is considerable organization internationally, with a Board of Trustees, rules, regulations, compliance with laws governing non-profits and so on.

Anarchism is one of those things that, like perfection, is something many strive for but nobody actually achieves. There will always be some kind of form which governs things.

I belong to a local group of Meerschaum pipe collectors. It is not registered as a charity, so it is free to govern itself as it sees fit. Nevertheless, there is a group leader, a treasurer and so on. The division of labor has occurred more or less organically, based on the principle that "the world is run by those who show up."

And that, ultimately, is where anarchy leads. The end result is a kind of organization that is led by those who are most involved in its operations, regardless of titles. Am I saying that anarchism leads directly to absolutism? Why yes, yes I am. Note that I'm not discussing whether this absolutism is benign or malignant. That's irrelevant.

You want a society that is based on participation by all in decision-making? Good luck with that. It will never happen.

Public policy, and citizen participation within the political process, is ultimately governed by what is known as Rational Ignorance. I can work hard to educate myself about public policy and work for those changes that I would like to see effected. Alternately, I can spend time with my wife and children. I cannot do both of these at the same time. I can familiarize myself with the intricacies of energy policy, or I can go to the dentist. And so on....

Obviously these are facile, silly examples. But underlying them is the reality that most people honestly do not care about anything beyond their most immediate sphere of influence. Concerning oneself with anything beyond that narrow sphere is considered, by most people, to be a tremendous waste of time. This accounts for voter turnout, which has been falling pretty much everywhere for the last half century or so. It accounts for the fact that so many people are ignorant of even the most basic facets of economics or public policy. But that ignorance is, ultimately, rational. It makes sense to the people who choose to be ignorant.

The society anarchists dream of is one of maximum participation, but it is a pipe dream. I'm not interested in endless meetings and discussions. Let other people take part in all that, and if I don't like what they decide then I will ignore it to the best of my abilities. I will not be alone in this. Most people will feel the same way. And so governance will be left to a small group of people with a larger group of advisors, all of whom are sanctioned by an ever-shrinking percentage of the population.

Hmmm....sounds an awful lot like modern liberal democracy.


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PostPosted: April 11th, 2015, 12:37 am 
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yeah I agree with most of what you say,
except that - you can't say because of ignorance, rational or not, that people in power are sanctioned or that the people will be able to have input in the system whenever they choose to inform themselves and want access to knowledge and power

most anarchists realize that you must accept authority to someone that has expert knowledge
Not only does Bakunin bow the knee to science, but he also swears allegiance to technical or scientific skill.
In the matter of boots I am willing to accept the authority of the shoemaker; of clothes, the opinion of the tailor; if it is a house, a canal, or a railway, I consult the architect and the engineer. What I respect is not their office but their science, not the man but his knowledge. I cannot, however, allow any one of them to impose upon me, be he shoemaker, tailor, architect, or savant. I listen to them willingly and with all the respect which their intelligence, character, or knowledge deserves, but always reserving my undis­puted right of criticism and control.
what I meant by "anarchistic" organization, and AA as an example, I mean that it uses leaderlessness and decentralization, distribution of knowledge and power as a strength,
and not that I want or that anarchists agree, society to be structured that way
it is something to think about and I have been reading about the concepts along with anarchism in general
The 'starfish model' for the war on terrorism
How to counter a decentralized foe

Ori Brafman, Rod A. Beckstrom

September 15, 2006

FIVE YEARS after 9/11, al Qaeda continues to run wild. It's easy to blame an unfocused administration's diversion of resources to Iraq. But what if it really comes down to the surprising power of starfish? Cut off a starfish's arm, and not only will it grow a new one, but the severed arm will regenerate into a whole new starfish. This amazing feat is possible because a starfish is decentralized; its internal systems are distributed and replicated across each arm. Like a starfish, al Qaeda is decentralized -- more similar to Alcoholics Anonymous than to a traditional army. No one really runs AA. Anyone can start an AA group. The only thing that binds AA members together is a shared ideology. No one has ever waged war on AA, of course. But we can learn a lot from two lesser known starfish organizations that proved immune to attack.

In the 1980s, headlines told of radicals waging a secret war, of hidden cells and of the FBI's inability to do anything about them. They weren't talking about al Qaeda, but about the Animal Liberation Front, which took direct action on behalf of animals (i.e., broke into labs). Some applauded the ALF's efforts; others condemned them. But the FBI wasn't able to contain these tofu-eating activists. The more aggressively the ALF was pursued, the more easily it recruited new members.

Like AA, the ALF lacked formal leadership, top-down hierarchy and structure. It was just a loose collection of informal circles linked by common beliefs. But its seemingly chaotic structure made it incredibly resilient to attack. The ALF drew its power from its decentralization.

Back in the 1580s, the Spanish were the ones surprised by the power of a seemingly chaotic starfish enemy. They had easily conquered the Aztecs and Incas -- impressive civilizations with elaborate infrastructure and strong leadership. But now the Spanish encountered the Apaches. For 200 years, the Apaches withstood Spanish (and later Mexican and American) attacks. Unlike the Aztecs or the Incas, the Apaches were a distributed society. Instead of cities, they had small villages; instead of formal structure, loosely connected groups. Instead of powerful chiefs, they had Nant'ans (the most famous of whom was Geronimo), who led by example. When the Spanish burned a village, the Apaches moved on; when they killed a Nant'an, another tribe member would take his place. The harder the Spanish attacked, the more decentralized -- and resilient -- the Apaches became.

When you fight a starfish, traditional tactics won't work. There's no headquarters to bomb. Remove the leader, and another one will replace him. Eliminate circles, and new ones will spring up. But there are three strategies that will work against a decentralized foe: Change ideology. Eliminating al Qaeda's leadership and taking out individual cells is futile. But, by establishing schools, providing services and creating cultural bridges, we can counter the ideology that fuels al Qaeda. Centralize the opponent. Why did the Apaches finally lose, after two centuries of independence and insurrection? As compensation for moving to reservations, the Americans gave the Nant'ans cows to distribute among the tribe. With this scarce resource came real, as opposed to symbolic, power. As a result, the Apaches became more centralized, and therefore much easier to control. Rather than pursuing al Qaeda's leaders, we can look for ways to centralize the organization. Decentralize ourselves. "It comes down to a game of soccer," a senior special-ops officer told us, describing U.S. efforts to combat terrorism. "It's like handing a soccer team a pigskin and expecting them to be able to play football. But it's a different game with different rules." The kind of forces that could defeat al Qaeda would look much more like special-ops units than a centralized army.

History teaches us that a battle with a decentralized opponent has a different set of rules. As we sit here believing that we're playing soccer, we're quickly losing the most important football game of our age. It's time to pick up the ball and play with a new strategy.

Ori Brafman and Rod A. Beckstrom are co-authors of the forthcoming book, "The Starfish and the Spider" (Portfolio / Penguin Group).

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/AL ... hModel.htm

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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 3:17 pm 
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Got to laugh at the commies, even when they set up a German Puppet state, it still ends up sounding and looking the way it always did



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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 4:16 pm 
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But you have to admit that DDR soldier's uniforms looked better than the western ones

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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 5:32 pm 
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Wolfgang you damn commie :dogout:

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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 8:46 pm 
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Markgraf
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Dem red army choirs are getting to my head, somebody help me

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[1:18:37]+KaiserWilhelm: Isn't Wolfgang|NoR Hitler's alter ego?
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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 9:35 pm 
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Reichsgraf
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Wolfgang von Sterreich wrote:But you have to admit that DDR soldier's uniforms looked better than the western ones
But the helmets....

Also, just wanted to say here (so that others in NoR are aware) that I've been enjoying my time on the LSF forum very much.


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PostPosted: April 17th, 2015, 11:10 pm 
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kingzog wrote:
Wolfgang von Sterreich wrote:But you have to admit that DDR soldier's uniforms looked better than the western ones
But the helmets....

Also, just wanted to say here (so that others in NoR are aware) that I've been enjoying my time on the LSF forum very much.
If it's alright with you, I like being here. I'll go places, but not those places.

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PostPosted: April 18th, 2015, 8:14 am 
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You're all dirty commie sympathisers :dogout:

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PostPosted: April 18th, 2015, 9:59 am 
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Kaiser Hanssen wrote:You're all dirty commie sympathisers :dogout:
One to make the commies feel at home


and one to remind them it is a dangerous world out there.



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