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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 11th, 2015, 4:09 pm 
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Herzog
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Well it's their one time offer for a way out as far as I'm concerned. No forum post, no declaration of victory/defeat/shit posting, just stop and walk away.

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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 11th, 2015, 6:56 pm 
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Joined: July 1st, 2015, 3:31 pm
Posts: 22
Just to clarify here, Kashmir isn't at war with CA. It's mainly Stripes. I've talked to Chairman Hal about this and I think if you guys talk to Sigrun and try to get CA to back off, I think I might be able to convince Stripes to let CA walk away. But I would have to discuss this more with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 12:43 am 
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It seems that Stripes is favourable towards some sort of deal, from what I can tell. Have you guys spoken with Sigrun yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 4:01 am 
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So I've got Hitchcock to agree to a surrender for MI. I've gotten Methrage to agree to surrender only if everyone else on his side does too. The only reply back I'm waiting for is from Sigrun. Sigrun has the ability to end this entire war right now if he says yes to the proposed surrender. If you guys could put some pressure on Sigrun, that'd be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 4:06 am 
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Markgraf
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As long as you realise this should exclude Deep6, as he is a rogue which Hitchcock has already said and admitted before Deep6 left MInc

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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 4:40 am 
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Posts: 22
We view the Deep6 issue as being completely separate. If Nordreich wants to continue pursuing Deep6, that's nothing to do with us. Also talked to Sigrun on IRC...just wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 4:41 am 
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[02:01:08] <Sigrun> that's funny shit man
[02:02:02] <NDPstan> Regardless of the comedy, do I have your reply?
[02:03:05] <NDPstan> You can end all this stupid back and forth OWF bickering and ankle-biting right now if you wanted to.
[02:03:21] <Sigrun> oh, so you are ready to surrender?
[02:03:35] <NDPstan> Are you ready to be serious with me?
[02:03:57] <Sigrun> I am being completely serious
[02:04:10] <NDPstan> I'm not going to play any games here. The terms are simple. 2/3 of your coalition has already agreed to it either outright or tentatively.
[02:04:14] <Sigrun> you're beaten
[02:04:18] <Sigrun> admit it
[02:04:22] <NDPstan> So I see you're not ready to be serious
[02:04:41] <Sigrun> serious as drowning. I see you still dont grok war.
[02:04:52] <NDPstan> I don't know what that means, but I speak English.
[02:09:02] <Sigrun> well all right then. get back to me when you get back in touch with reality.
[02:10:48] <NDPstan> Reality, Sigrun, is that basically 2/3 of your coalition has surrendered and is massively outnumbered and outgunned and sanctioned to boot with no military means of actually defeating your opponents except to outdamage some low level nations who are easily rebuilt with a slot of aid.
[02:11:14] <Sigrun> you're so cute when you try to pretend you understand war
[02:11:15] <NDPstan> Why do you insist on prolonging this dumb battle on the OWF and all this ankle-biting. Your allies want quits. Your friends want you to quit.
[02:11:31] <Sigrun> why did you insist on attacking us hmmm?
[02:11:34] <Sigrun> no they dont
[02:11:43] <Sigrun> quit lying I am talking with them in the other window you idiot
[02:11:48] <NDPstan> I guess I must have completely imagined Hitchcock surrendering.
[02:11:57] <Sigrun> apparently
[02:12:22] <NDPstan> The logs are just completely fabricated.
[02:12:38] <NDPstan> Methrage right now is discussing specifics of the surrender with me
[02:12:40] <Sigrun> if they say he surrendered, then yes, I believe they must be
[02:12:45] <NDPstan> Or rather was. He's on a buzz.
[02:12:55] <NDPstan> Wants to discuss more tomorrow
[02:13:01] <Sigrun> like I said I am talking with him in the other tab
[02:13:29] <NDPstan> So either you're lying about what they're saying, or they're lying to me about wanting to surrender.
[02:13:38] <NDPstan> One or the other.
[02:13:54] <NDPstan> Now I don't believe they'd just say that.
[02:13:59] <NDPstan> So that narrows down the options here.
[02:14:13] <Sigrun> or you're drastically exaggerating, spinning, misinterpreting what they say. if you want to rule that out then I guess all that's left is you are lying
[02:14:24] <Sigrun> which would be no surprise. everyone on your side seems to do it as a matter of course
[02:14:38] <NDPstan> Not at all. Hitchcock has outright agreed to it. Methrage is a tentative yes if all other agree.
[02:14:45] <NDPstan> That's not spinning or exaggerating.
[02:15:18] <NDPstan> I'm trying to discuss this seriously with you and all you've done is bloviate and try to insult my character.
[02:15:38] <Sigrun> if you want to discuss this seriously
[02:15:43] <NDPstan> If you're not interested in the terms, then fine. If you want to be the sole cause of prolonging this war at the expense of your friends and allies, fine.
[02:16:02] <Sigrun> you can start by getting over this ludicrous idea that losing a war is going to get you a surrender
[02:16:25] <Sigrun> you attacked us for no reason
[02:16:31] <NDPstan> But when they tell me they want to surrender or will if the others agree...and you're telling me I'm lying, it's clearly you're under the influence of a narcotic.
[02:16:38] <Sigrun> and you are being punished
[02:16:47] <Sigrun> and as long as you keep pretending you are winning
[02:16:53] <Sigrun> there is no reason for your punishment to end
[02:16:54] <NDPstan> If this is your punishment, Sigrun, you can punish me all you'd like.
[02:17:13] <Sigrun> good! so no need to speak with you anymore.
[02:17:28] <NDPstan> It's sad that your friends could see reason but not you
[02:17:34] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:15:07am] Sigrun so jack is in a query window here swearing you two have already agreed to surrender
[02:17:35] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:15:16am] Sigrun am I safe to call him a liar?
[02:17:37] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:16:07am] Methrage "
[02:17:38] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:16:08am] Methrage I can only agree to peace which can include everyone on our side, if its unacceptable to others I can't agree. I doubt it will be acceptable to all parties involved."
[02:17:40] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:16:17am] Methrage Then I clarified no was my reponse after
[02:17:41] <Sigrun> [Thursday 01:16:37am] Methrage when he tried putting me down as tentative yes
[02:17:43] <Sigrun> it's sad you're such a bad liar
[02:17:50] <Sigrun> eh, not really, I'm ok with it
[02:18:12] <NDPstan> Except I did not say that Methrage agreed to surrender. I said he agreed if the others did. I never said anything else.
[02:18:30] <NDPstan> [01:48:48] <Methrage> I already know CA will say no, so my answer is no.[01:49:11] <NDPstan> Did Sigrun actually say no?[01:49:31] <Methrage> I know Sigrun doesn't want to surrender, I don't think anything has changed[01:49:44] <Methrage> Although you haven't give me time to speak with either yet[01:50:06] <NDPstan> Take as much time as you need. Just wanted to know where you stand.
[02:18:43] <Sigrun> well at any rate you claim you can understand english and I already told you in english
[02:18:49] <Sigrun> is there anything you need clarification of?
[02:18:58] <NDPstan> That isn't telling me "no". That's saying "I think Sigrun will say no, but let me talk to him"
[02:19:09] <Sigrun> it sure as hell isnt yes
[02:19:14] <NDPstan> Nor did I say it was a yes
[02:19:34] <NDPstan> I said it was a yes, if everyone else agrees.
[02:19:47] <NDPstan> Which is precisely what he told me and precisely what he confirmed to you there
[02:20:24] <Sigrun> they can agree to a separate peace with you if they want to
[02:20:44] <Sigrun> I dont know why they would want to though
[02:20:56] <NDPstan> Because they see reality
[02:21:19] <NDPstan> If you want several more months of a shitshow on the OWF and more ankle-biting, okay
[02:21:28] <Sigrun> no, that's why they aren't rushing to accept youroffe
[02:21:32] <Sigrun> months?
[02:21:39] <Sigrun> lol ok
[02:22:01] <NDPstan> I am at a loss to imagine how someone as delusional as you can function in life.
[02:22:37] <Sigrun> I see reality quite clearly, it's not my problem you are still caught up in the same old popular delusion
[02:22:52] <NDPstan> Right.
[02:22:58] <NDPstan> And the sky is made of orange.
[02:23:05] <Sigrun> you're so lost
[02:23:08] <Sigrun> you're soooo clueles
[02:23:13] <NDPstan> Whatever keeps you going, man
[02:23:17] <Sigrun> you suck so bad at war
[02:23:30] <Sigrun> I'm supposed to be afraid of you?
[02:23:36] <Sigrun> you couldnt defeat me with 1000 nations
[02:23:49] <NDPstan> You're really bad at trying to get under my skin. You're like the retarded guy at the bus stop jacking off who tells me to fuck off and tries to intimidate me. I feel more pity for him than contempt.
[02:23:57] <Sigrun> not in a righteous war like this
[02:24:02] <Sigrun> no I am telling you the truth
[02:24:24] <Sigrun> that irritating feeling 'getting under your skin' is the delusion defense circuits in your brain resisting the truth
[02:25:56] <NDPstan> You're not really saying anything. You're just claiming things with no basis to it. I can point to the number of alliances you're fighting, the number of nations involved, the number of aid slots in our possession, the fact most of your alliance is sanctioned, that most are okay with saying "I tap out", that the vast majority are like 1000NS or less.
[02:26:01] <NDPstan> I can go on all day.
[02:26:16] <Sigrun> and that just illustrates that you do not understand war
[02:26:25] <Sigrun> you cite a bunch of factors that are not important
[02:26:36] <Sigrun> (though they are commonly held to be important by the chattering classes)
[02:26:56] <NDPstan> You fail to cite a single factor that's in your favour. Again, you're just claiming things without basis and insulting my character. I have facts, you have delusion. That's the difference between us
[02:27:14] <Sigrun> that's what the deluded always say :)
[02:27:34] <Sigrun> I get a break in about an hour if you genuinely want to discuss it perhaps I would have time then
[02:27:38] <NDPstan> Again, you just prove me point even more. Rather than point to a fact that's in your favour you just continue to say things without basis and insult my character.
[02:27:40] <NDPstan> *my
[02:29:42] <NDPstan> You know your position isn't desirable, yet you want to pretend like it is because you think this will give you an advantage at the negotiation table. Your tenacity is admirable but that's not really going to fly here. We're not going to stop seeing facts just because you keep repeating whatever misinformation you've trained yourself to honestly believe.
[02:29:48] <Sigrun> you're currently involved in an aggressive war with absolutely no justification, against people you pretended to be friends with up until right before, and you dont want your character insulted?
[02:29:49] <Sigrun> lol
[02:29:56] <Sigrun> what character?
[02:30:16] <NDPstan> I don't give a fuck about what you say about me. I just want you to say something of substance here. Something you've adamantly avoided doing.
[02:32:06] <Sigrun> I dont need to say anything you know. I am showing you undeserved courtesy to begin with.
[02:32:46] <NDPstan> Again, more words with nothing to say. You claim you're winning but you cannot point to one piece of evidence that backs that up whereas I can point to a long laundry list.
[02:33:02] <NDPstan> Your only response to that is to claim, again without basis, that they're unimportant
[02:33:15] <NDPstan> Regardless of your opinion on them, they are important
[02:33:20] <NDPstan> That's a fact.
[02:33:25] <Sigrun> I told you I would try to give you some time when I hit my break, if that isnt good enough then just fuck off now
[02:33:29] <NDPstan> Something you are absolutely void of.
[02:33:51] <NDPstan> What's the point? If all you have to offer me is more words and no substance, I'd just be wasting my time.
[02:34:11] <NDPstan> You have the offer before you, if you want to reject it, okay.
[02:34:16] <Sigrun> fine. build a nation and come see me in game if you want substance.
[02:34:17] <NDPstan> That's literally the only question I asked you.
[02:34:25] <Sigrun> you are in no position to make demands of me
[02:34:29] <NDPstan> A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

----

That's the entire conversation beginning to end.


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 5:48 am 
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Markgraf
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Joined: May 18th, 2009, 8:42 am
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Well just ZI them all and keep them that way, I am sure that will appeal to their egos, so they have something else to bleat on about.

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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 7:57 am 
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Joined: July 1st, 2015, 3:31 pm
Posts: 22
It will likely end up that way. It's sad. I don't think I could have come across more calm and reasonable. The amazing thing was the Sigrun blocked me temporarily, then unblocked me. He then sent me a message in game saying that he's ready to talk again if only I don't insult him anymore.

This is like if I were to repeatedly knee a Buddhist monk in the balls and, as he's curled up on the floor in pain, ask if he's ready to denounce violence like I have. You guys know Sigrun better than I do. Is there some kind of psychological disorder here? Is he on some kind of medication? Because it should be triple dosed.


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 Post subject: Re: Kashmir [Kash]
PostPosted: August 13th, 2015, 5:08 pm 
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Sigrun is just overly concerned about the word "surrender". I don't get it myself, as I made obvious on the OWF, and both sides are being ridiculous about it. The word without any substance is just a word. No one has requested reps or military limits or anything that actually affects the game. Of course, I think honor is for the dead. The living should think about power, whether relational (friendships) or mechanical (nationstrength+warchests), with relational>mechanical. I will happily surrender for a friend, even to the sacrifice of nationstrength, because a friend is far more valuable than the resources.

At the end of the day, you guys seem to have enough support to 1. Exhaust their warchests. 2. Aid your lowers out of their range (which you guys should be doing more of, fighting at that level only aids the weaker party). Wonders help them, but will eventually keep them bill-locked at lower nationstrength levels. About all you guys can do is what you are attempting currently: use their own stubbornness against their existing relationships and thump them if they approach a NS where you can do more monetary damage than they can raid. Once they get bill-locked, they need friendships to bail them out. If they issue a call for aid/techdeals and no one shows up, then they will never be able to fight again. Even if only few show up, it drastically curtails their future growth.

I would rather have NSO/DK/CA stay strong than have them exhaust resources pursuing or avoiding a surrender, but I've already harassed CA & SRA about it on the OWF and have been asked to stop. At this point, I don't care enough about the situation to ignore that request.

I think a big thing lacking in all of this is a fundamental understanding of Sigrun's goals. You cannot give a person rational reasons to disregard an irrational mindset. This is why ISIS and the Taliban have been such a problem in the Middle East. U.S. officials keep thinking that they can use rationality to counter terrorist's irrational beliefs. You can't. You either find a way you can appeal to their beliefs, or if you can't do so, become an agent of natural selection.

I'm engaging in a lot of speculation here, but Sigrun feels both persecuted and bullied. For him, it's far more in keeping with his ethos to die with a sword in his hand than allow another person to dictate the terms of his actions. It's not about his relationships. It's not about his nationstrength. His ethos or nothing. If you guys are fine with breaking his NS and relationships, that's up to you. But I doubt he'll yield. Probably delete first.

If it were me, I would seek rapprochement rather than surrender, but nobody gives a damn what I think.

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Last edited by Duderonomy on August 13th, 2015, 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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